|TRANSLATION OF DOCUMENT 1816-PS
Source:Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression. Volume IV,USGPO, Washington, 1946/pp.425-457
STENOGRAPHIC REPORT OF
THE MEETING ON "THE JEWISH QUESTION" UNDER THE CHAIRMANSHIP OF FIELD MARSHALL
GOERING IN THE REICHS AIR FORCE
Goering: I have said so before.
(Shout by Goebbels)
* * * that is a misunderstanding. That is now the committee which is elaborating on nothing but on this problem which is being tackled. How are the shares, how are the claims on the debit-ledger to be handled? Therefore, I shouldn't like to have anybody else in the Committee, in order to keep it as small as possible.
Buerkel: Is the plan for the aryanizing to be discussed also?
Goering: Mr. Fischboeck shall bring that up. This place is the crux of the matter. I hope you have listened properly so that you know exactly what is to be valid for the Sudetengau! Of course, I too am of the opinion that these economic measures ought to be strengthened by a number of Police-action-Propaganda-measures and cultural displays so that everything shall be fixed now and the Jewry will be slapped this week right and left.
Heydrich: In spite of the elimination of the Jew from the economic life, the main problem, namely to kick the Jew out of Germany, remains. May I make a few proposals to that effect? Following a suggestion by the Commissioner of the Reich, we have set up a center for the Emigration of Jews in Vienna, and that way we have eliminated 50,000 Jews from Austria while from the Reich only 19,000 Jews were eliminated during the same period of time; we were so successful because of the cooperation on the part of the competent Ministry for Economic Affairs and of the foreign charitable organizations.
Goering: The main thing is, you cooperated with the local leaders of the "Green Frontier."
Heyrich: That amounted to a very small number, your excellency. Illegal * * *
Goering: This story has gone through the whole world press. During the first night the Jews were expulsed into Czechoslovakia. The next morning, the Czechs grabbed them and pushed them into Hungary. From Hungary, they were returned to Germany and from there into Czechoslovakia. They traveled around and around that way. They landed finally on an old Barge in the Danube. There they lived, and wherever they tried to go ashore, they were barred.
Heydrich: That was the report. There weren't even 100 Jews.
Goering: For practically two weeks, a number of Jews left every midnight. That was in the Burgenland.
Heydrich: At least 45,000 Jews were made to leave the country by legal measures.
Goering: How was that possible?
Heydrich: Through the Jewish Kulturgemeinde, we extracted a certain amount of money from the rich Jews who wanted to emigrate. By paying this amount, and an additional sum in foreign currency, they made it possible for a number of poor Jews to leave. The problem was not to make the rich Jew leave but to get rid of the Jewish mob.
Goering: But children, did you ever think this through? It doesn't help us to extract hundreds of thousands from the Jewish mob. Have you ever thought of it that this procedure may cost us so much foreign currency that in the end we won't be able to hold out.
Heydrich: Only what the Jew has had in foreign currency.
(Goering : agreed)
This way. May I propose that we set up a similar procedure for the Reich, with the cooperation of the competent government agencies, and that we then find a solution for the Reich, based on our experiences, after having corrected the mistakes, the General Field Marshall has so rightly pointed out to us.
(Goering : agreed)
As another means of getting the Jews out, measures for Emigration ought to be taken in the rest of the Reich for the next 8 to 10 years. The highest number of Jews we can possibly get out during one year is 8,000 to 10,000. Therefore, a great number of Jews will remain. Because of the aryanizing and other restrictions, Jewry will become unemployed. The remaining Jews gradually become proletarians. Therefore, I shall have to take steps ; to isolate the Jew so he won't enter into the German normal routine of life. On the other hand, I shall have. to restrict the Jew to a small circle of consumers, but I shall have to permit certain activities within professions ; lawyers, doctors, barbers, etc. This question shall also have to be examined.
As for the isolation, I'd like to make a few proposals regarding police measures which are important also because of their psychological effect on public opinion. For example, who is Jewish according to the Nurnberg laws shall have to wear a certain insignia. That is a possibility which shall facilitate many other things. I don't see any danger of excuses, and it shall make our relationship with the foreign Jew easier.
Goering: A uniform?
Heydrich: An insignia. This way we could also put an end to it that the foreign Jews who don't look different from ours, are being molested.
Goering: But, my dear Heydrich, you won't be able to avoid the creation of ghettos on a very large scale, in all the cities. They shall have to be created.
Heydrich: As for the question of ghettos, I'd like to make my position clear right away. From the point of view of the police, I don't think a ghetto in the form of completely segregated districts where only Jews would live, can be put up. We could not control a ghetto where the Jews congregate amidst the whole Jewish people. It would remain the permanent hideout for criminals and also for epidemics and the like. We don't want to let the Jew live in the same house with the German population ; but today the German population, their blocks or houses, force the Jew to behave himself. The control of the Jew through the watchful eye of the whole population is better than having him by the thousands in a district where I cannot properly establish a control over his daily life through uniformed agents.
Goering: We'd only have to forbid long-distance calls.
Heydrich: Still I could not completely stop the Jews from communicating out of their districts.
Goering: And in towns all of their own?
Heydrich: If I could put them into towns entirely their own, yes. But then these towns would be such a heaven for criminals of all sorts that they would be a terrific danger. I'd take different steps. I'd restrict the movement of the Jews and would say; in Munich, the governmental district and the district * * *
Goering : Wait a minute! I don' t care so much for it that the Jews don' t appear in spots where I don' t want them. My point is this one ; if one Jew won' t have any more work, he' ll have to live modestly. He won' t be able to go far on his 3½%-to res-taurants, etc. He' ll have to work more. That'll bring about a concentration of Jewry which may even facilitate control. You will know that in a particular house only Jews are living. We shall also have concentrated Jewish butchers, barbers, grocers, etc., in certain streets. The question is of course whether we want to go on tolerating that. If not, the Jew shall have to buy from the Aryan.
Heydrich: No, I'd say that for the necessities in daily life, the German won' t serve the Jew anymore.
Goering: One moment. You cannot let him starve. But there'll be the following difficulty. If you say that the Jews will be able to have so and so many retail stores, then they'll again be in business, and they' ll continually have to sell for the wholesaler.
Schmer: In a small town that wouldn' t work at all.
Goering: It could only be worked out if you'd reserve in advance whole districts or whole towns for the Jews. Otherwise, you' ll have to have only Germans do business, and the Jew shall have to buy from them. You cannot set up a Jewish barbershop. The Jew will have to buy food and stockings.
Heydrich: We' ll have to decide whether we want that or not.
Goering: I' d like to make a decision on that right now. We cannot make another subdivision here. We cannot argue: so and so many stores will remain for the Jew because then again no control will be possible since these stores in turn would have to work with wholesale stores. I' d say, all stores should be Aryan stores, and the Jew may buy there. One may go one step further and say that these and these stores will probably be frequented mostly by Jews. You may set up certain barbershops operated by Jews. You may make concessions in order to channel certain professions into certain streets for certain tasks. But not stores.
Heydrich: What about the ghetto? Would the Jew have to go to an Aryan district to buy.
Goering: No. I' d say that enough German storekeepers would love to dwell in the ghetto if they could do some business there. I wouldn' t alter the principle that the Jew shall have no more say in German economy.
Heydrich: I shouldn' t like to comment on that. Now a few things which are important also from a psychological angle.
Goering: Once we'd have a ghetto, we'd find out what stores ought to be in there, and we'd be able to say; you, the Jew so and so, together with so and so, shall take care of the delivery of goods. And a German wholesale firm will be ordered to deliver the goods for this Jewish store. This store would then not be a retail shop but a cooperative store, a cooperative one for Jews.
Heydrich: All these measures would eventually lead to the institution of the ghetto. I'd say one shouldn't want to build a ghetto. But these measures, if carried through as outlined here, shall automatically drive the Jews into a ghetto.
Funk: The Jews will have to move quite close together. What are 3 million? Everyone will have to stand up for the next fellow. The individual alone will starve.
Goering: Now, as to what Minister Goebbels has said before, namely compulsory renting. Now, the Jewish tenants will be together.
Heydrich: As an additional measure, I'd propose to withdraw from the Jews all personal papers such as permits and drivers licenses. No Jew should be allowed to own a car, neither should he be permitted to drive because that way he'd endanger German life. By not being permitted to live in certain districts, he should be furthermore restricted to move about so freely. I'd say the Royal Square in Munich, the Reichsweihestatte, is not to be entered any more within a certain radius by Jews. The same would go for establishments of culture, border fences, military installations. Furthermore, like Minister Dr. Goebbels has said before, exclusion of the Jews from public theaters, movie houses, etc. As for cultural activities, I'd like to say this; cultural activities in holiday resorts may be considered an additional feature, not absolutely necessary for the individual. Many German Volksgenessen are unable to improve their health through a stay at a resort town. I don't see why the Jew should go to these places at all.
Goering: To health spas, no.
Heydrich: Well, then I'd like to propose the same thing for hospitals. A Jew shall not lie in a hospital, together with Aryan Volkgenossen.
Goering: We'll have to manage that gradually.
Heydrich: The same applies to public conveyances.
Goering: Are there no Jewish Sanatoriums and Jewish hospitals ?
We'll have to finagle all this. These things will have to be straightened out one right after another.
Heydrich: I only meant to secure your approval in principle so that we may start out on all this.
Goering: One more question, gentlemen: What would you think the situation would be if I'd announce today that Jewry should have to contribute this 1 billion as a punishment?
Buerckel: The Viennese would agree to this whole-heartedly.
Goebbels: I wonder if the Jews would have a chance to pull out of this, and to put something on the side.
Brinkmann: They'd be subject to punishment.
V. Krosigk: Mr. Fischboeck, one question: Could this authorization be ordered without their closing out their securities?
Funk: They are all registered. They'll also have to register the money.
V. Krosigk: But for the time being they may dispose of it.
Goering: It won't help them to cash them all. They can't get rid of the money.
Funk: They'll be the ones to have the damage if they sell their stocks and bonds.
Fischboeck: There is a certain danger, but I don't think it is very great. But only then, when all the other measures shall definitely be carried out during next week.
V. Krosigk: They have to be taken during the next week at the latest.
Goering: I would make that a condition.
Fischboeck: Maybe it is good that we put ourselves under pressure this way.
Goering: I shall close the wording this way ; that German Jewry shall, as punishment for their abominable crimes etc., etc., have to make a contribution of 1 billion. That'll work. The pigs won't commit another murder. Incidentally, I'd like to say again that I would not like to be a Jew in Germany.
V. Krosigk: Therefore, I'd like to emphasize what Mr. Heydrich has said in the beginning ; that we'll have to try everything possible, by way of additional exports, to shove the Jews into foreign countries. The decisive factor is that we don't want the society-proletariat here. They'll always be a terrific liability for us.
(Frick : "and a danger !")
I don't imagine the prospect of the ghetto is very nice. The idea of the ghetto is not a very agreeable one. Therefore, the goal must be, like Heydrich said, to move out whatever we can!
Goering: The second point is this. If, in the near future, the German Reich should come into conflict with foreign powers, it goes without saying that we in Germany should first of all let it come to a showdown with the Jews. Besides that, the Fuehrer shall now make an attempt with those foreign powers which have brought the Jewish question up, in order to solve the Madagascar project. He has explained it all to me on 9 November. There is no other way. He'll tell the other countries. "What are you talking about the Jew for?-Take him!" Another proposal may be made. The Jews, gotten rid of may buy territory for their "coreligionists" in North America, Canada, or elsewhere.
I wish to summarize : The Minister of Economic Affairs shall direct the committee and he shall in one form or another, take all steps necessary within the next few days.
Blerning: I fear that during the next few days, beginning Monday, the Jews will start to sell bonds on internal loans for hundreds of thousands, in order to provide themselves with means. Since we control the course of the internal loan in order to sell more bonds, the Reich-Treasury, Loan-Committee or the Reich Minister for Finance should have to back this internal loan.
Goering: In what way could the Jew bring his bonds on the market ?
(Remark : "Sell them")
(Remark : "on the stock market-he orders a bank to do it.")
Well, I'll prohibit selling internal loan bonds for three days.
Blerning: That could be done only through a decree.
Goering: I can't see any advantage for the Jew. He won't know himself how and he'll have to pay. On the contrary, I believe he won't move.
Goebbels: For the time being he is small and ugly and stays at home.
Goering: I don't think it would be logical. Otherwise we'll have to do it. The reason why I want this decree in a hurry is that for the time being we have peace but who can guarantee that there won't be new trouble by Saturday or Sunday. Once and for all I want to eliminate individual acts. The Reich has taken the affairs in its own hand. The Jew can only sell. He can't do a thing. He'll have to pay. At this moment, the individual Jew won't think of throwing anything on the market. There'll be some chatter first, and then they will begin to run to us. They'll look for those great Aryans with whom, they'll think they may have some luck, the so-called various mailboxes of the Reich with whom they can lodge their protests. These people will run my door in. All that takes some time, and by then we'll be ready.
Daluege: May we issue the order for confiscating the cars?
Goering: Also the Ministry of the Interior and the Police will have to think over, what measures will have to be taken. I thank you.
[Conference closed at 2.40 PM]
Faculty of Humanities, Languages and Social Sciences